Orijinalini görmek için tıklayınız : Insulting words towards tarkan
**MegaStarkan**
05-09-07, 17:46
The discussion between Tarkan and Ibrahim Tatlises* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0brahim_Tatl%C4%B1ses) about the “worthless fellow “-debate seems to never stop!
http://resimler.haberler.com/haber/058/hiyar-herif-tartismasi-suruyor_o.jpg
Last week it was rumoured that Tarkan will appear on stage, during the concert of Ibrahim Tatlises and Sibel Can* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibel_Can), in “Harbiye open air theater” (Istanbul). But the wish for a duet with these 3 stars couldn’t be realized. After the concert it was evident that Tarkan visited Sibel Can in the backdrop.
Thus it appears that the dust between Tarkan and Ibrahim Tatlises hasn’t still settled. The reason for their irritation is that Tarkan once said that in Turkey there wasn’t a show to enter the stage. Ibrahim Tatlises who has a show in Turkey countered to Tarkan’s allegation with an abuse and was therefore cursed with a payment in the amount of 4.520 Euro.
For the Turkish section click here (http://www.tarkancoll.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5214)
I did not know that Ibrahim Tatlises had to pay a fine for his words against Tarkan. I think if Tarkan says, all Tv shows are crap and I don't want to go there, he is:
1. not being very smart because the media are his connection with his audience
2. going to expect some reaction from Tv show hosts who are insulted.
Why is it so that Tarkan can critisize other people in public but he does not accept any criticism back? I think he is too easily irritated and he should not bring such things to court. Use court not for the minor insults, but leave it for big things like theft, or blackmail.
Really the way Tarkan runs to court for everything that annoys him, is one of the few things I don't like about him. It is very American to do it. And also to try to shut people up and create "forbidden" things, like the book Yildiz Olgusu...it is very sad that he does such things, I don't like it.
I read Yildiz Olgusu and I find nothing bad in that book.
There are so many pop artists in Turkey who talk bad about Tarkan but I like it more when he stays above that and does not comment. Any action towards such losers is just creating more attention to them. Tarkan should be happy that everyone is mentioning his name all the time.
Inge
**MegaStarkan**
05-09-07, 19:19
I think if Tarkan says, all Tv shows are crap and I don't want to go there, he is:
1. not being very smart because the media are his connection with his audience
He didn't say this to the whole media. As the reporters asked him whether we can see him in a show or not, he just replied and said his opinion. There isn't really a good talk show in Turkey and I agree with him. I think he didn't say something bad to the paparazzi or somone else. Just his opinion about such shows.
Ibrahim Tatlises is the one who is to blame 'cause he could say that Tarkan couldn't have meant his show because it's a good one and such crap. He could blow his own trumpet. It was something like: If the shoe fits, wear it :P
I think he is too easily irritated and he should not bring such things to court.
On the one hand I agree with you but on the other hand I have to admit that Tarkan should do everything to prevent people talking about him bad. Why shouldn't he defend himself this way? It's perfect! That shows that he has a heart for justice and believes to his power. Who cares if it is american or not. If someone is in the right he should do everything.
And also to try to shut people up and create "forbidden" things, like the book Yildiz Olgusu...it is very sad that he does such things, I don't like it.
I read Yildiz Olgusu and I find nothing bad in that book.
I didn't read it. Can you tell me what it was about?
There are so many pop artists in Turkey who talk bad about Tarkan but I like it more when he stays above that and does not comment. Any action towards such losers is just creating more attention to them. Tarkan should be happy that everyone is mentioning his name all the time.
You watched today to his report "My return will be magnificent!" and even gave to the yahoo-group a brief summary what it was about. So you have probably noticed that he didn't answer to the criticisms about Cakmak Cakmak.
To sum up Tarkan would never harm a fly :) There are surely other reasons why he goes to court....
WAW !! THIS IS HUGE !!
actually i agree with KENAN on that ..
when i , as a fan , first got to know TARKAN it was through such rumours..
TARKAN has been attacked harshly by media , other artists and he prefered
to keep silent , on that i meant the whole "GAY" thing !!
well as a fan , i want to see TARKAN defending himself and fighting for his right.........
the other thing is , why TARKAN is rudely attacked just because he said his opinion about shows in TURKEY ????
it is his opinion (FOR GOD'S SAKE !!) should'nt anyone has the right to express his/her opinion freely !!!
if that man is so confident about his show , why would he assume that his show is meant by TARKANs comment ????? that's another thing ..
or it just TARKAN , yeah (HE CAN'T HARM A FLY!!) he wont say anything !
we want to see TARKAN with an attitude , saying "WELL I'VE HAD ENOUGH!!"
of course he has to choose his battles .. and to be smart ..
and for me THAT WAS SMART ^^
Thanks Kenan and Stranger, I like reading your opinions.
Okay Kenan thanks I did not know the details. But all I knew was that Tarkan said, there is no serious TV show for me to appear in, in Turkey. Maybe that is true, but Tarkan has never appeared in any serious Tv show outside of Turkey. In Germany he went to Stefan Raab, who joked around about a silly Turkish boyband, and they had lunch while Stefan put on a headscarf. How serious was that? In Holland, Tarkan went to Paul de Leeuw, a notorious homosexual stand up comedian who really treated Tarkan kindly by only replying to Tarkan's "You're crazy", with: "No I am not crazy, I am horney". It could have been much worse. At an earlier performance at Paul de Leeuw, where Tarkan performed, the entire audience was over 70 years old and his songs were interpreted by a deaf interpretor.(this was just a joke).
I mean I would love to see a serious Tv report with Tarkan. Not just filming him while he goes into a kebap house and call that "the report of the year".
Maybe a bit more like the earlier ones, where a TV crew would come to his house and ask him serious questions about his career, his songs, his decisions.
Like, "Tarkan sahici sahici" even though that was funny too, with him as ice-cream. Or like the report in New York and at Atlantic Records. That was really about the music, about his plans.
I cannot imagine that in the whole of Turkey there is no reporter that can do such a thing. We saw that German-Turkish woman with the formel 1 interview him in Istanbul, where he was driving his porsche and he was smoking waterpipe. That was an okay report, I think. Even though they got stuck with all these questions about his private life. I would love to hear more about his music, hear him tell the stories behind Karma, Aacayipsin...his career spans 15 years, and he is not that easily interviewed... there must be something to talk about!
He should do one major TV interview, just like Michael Jackson did with Oprah. It surprises me how the written interviews are always much more serious than the Tv interviews. Like the one with Hülya Avsar, and her cutting his hair. It is fun, but why must people make some sort of clown out of him? He is Turkey's biggest pop star for God's sake, it should be interesting enough to just have him on the show and ask him some intelligent questions...
As for the Yildiz Olgusu thing. This book was written by an academic, a woman who studies media and communication at Eskisehir University. She wrote her dissertation on Tarkan's image compared to that of Zeki Müren. She wanted to issue the part about Tarkan as a seperate book. In this book, Tarkan's image is analysed. There is an analysis of his communication with media and his fans, looking at the way he dresses, and how this is perceived in Turkish culture. She also discussed the stolen photos incident and how media wrote about that.
Tarkan wanted the book to be banned and went to court. He won (because he can afford expensive lawyers). All the books were taken from the bookstores because the book supposedly invaded his privacy. It was in the middle of the whole "Tarkan strikes back and goes to court" period.
I believe Tarkan did not nesessarily disagree with the content of the book, but he disliked the media's reaction to it. Because the woman wrote that the media called Tarkan gay. She just wrote: "it is people's desire to read gossip and the gossip does not have to be true". But the media said, now even an academic is writing that Tarkan is gay. This she did not do, she only quoted other people who said this. She also described that Tarkan's image had some references to homosexual imagery, these may be called metrosexual or gender bending, and this is common in pop music. She says he creates a mystery around him. She did not mention anything about his private life.
After the court case, the books were taken from the stores and it all cost her a lot of money.
I read the book (she sent one to me after I emailed her, she explained the situation). To my opinion, the book is just a scientific analysis of Tarkan and his image and his impact on Turkish society. She said he changed the perceptiuon of manhood in Turkey, and compares him to such cultural icons as Elvis Presley and Madonna. It is very interesting what she writes. I think such analysis should not be forbidden. Tarkan is part of social rumour and part of Turkish society, and academics should be free to analyse what he is doing and how he affects his and their society.
Tarkan the image, Tarkan the pop star and Tarkan the person cannot truly be separated, (but they are not the same either). But in this case I think there was no invasion of his privacy. For instance even though she discussed the photograph incident, she did not print the actual pictures. And she stressed that the media responded in a certain way to make money out of it.
love, Inge
hey INGE ,
about talk shows .. yeahTARKAN has never been taken seriously ... he's
a worldwide icon he must be taken seriously ...
he also didn't mind showing up in silly shows too !!
THAT'S TAKEN ON HIM ....
about the book ... i've heard alot about it .. i tried to buy it on web but
obviously i couldn't ... thanx for sharing us the context
i really appreciate it :20:
respect your opinion and thanx for all these precious facts ^^
**MegaStarkan**
06-09-07, 20:40
Thank you Inge for the information. Well, I would ban this book too because that had already affected Tarkan's image. No matter what she was writing as a matter of fact, the only thing that count's is that most of the people would have believed what the media was writing about the book. This would have caused a new flashback for us fans. There would again more news about his sexuality all the time. That would suck!
the other thing is , why TARKAN is rudely attacked just because he said his opinion about shows in TURKEY ????
it is his opinion (FOR GOD'S SAKE !!) should'nt anyone has the right to express his/her opinion freely !!!
lol that shows actually how important for them Tarkan's opinion is :D
I think Tarkan's influence is big in Turkey compared to other artists. That's why they make a mountain out of a molehille :P
Yes I agree with you that I UNDERSTAND why he did it but I don't agree with him. And I don't agree with the result of the trial.
I am an academic myself and I want to investigate things too, I feel very bad about censorship and taboos and making things forbidden.
His sexuality is only an issue because homosexuality is not generally accepted in TurKey and because Tarkan has a very ambivalent image, which he has done on perpose. Madonna did the same, she is always provocative and pretends to be bisexual, but she does not go to court if people say that.
Tarkan can be compared to David Bowie, Prince, George Michael...he creates this image that is attractive to heterosexual women, homosexual men and to lesbian women and heterosexual men. There is something there for everyone :)
I must say even after all these years and after really talking with him and getting relatively close, his true identity is very much a secret to me. I see him with Bilge and that looks very real, I believe in that relationship but I am not sure if he is not also interested in the same gender. And I am not sure if he would be with a woman if he would be living in another country where homosexuality is more accepted. I am not saying he is lying but in general some countries, and cultures, do result in gay men leading a double life, or denying to themselves their true desires, and Turkey is definately one of those countries. I have met gay men in Turkey and heard their stories, they don't have easy lives. You must either hide your identity or, if you are gay openly, you get put into this "not-real -man" stereotype category, as if those men are half women.
All I can say is, I hope Tarkan is happy. It seems he is, and that is most important. Even though the EVA article made me worried about his psychological state of mind and his sexuality, but what can I do? It is his life.
I thought he had a coming out of the closet (a forced one) but he made it seem there is no closet at all, or he is stepping back into it. Fine, whatever.
love, Inge
ooooooooooooooooooooooooh !! :9:
that was interesting and you're discussing a BIG ISSUE here ....
it's sooo difficult and exhausting to be a seleb . you have to be perfect
and above all the expects all the time , not mentioning looking fantastic
on matter what :11:
it's a heavy burden to put on a perfect version of you the minute you wake up tell your sleep . poor TARKAN seems to have that mask on even in his bedroom , i guess :16: >> if it's true .....
we should give TARKAN a break . he's a human . let's treat as such ..
Even though the EVA article made me worried about his psychological state of mind and his sexuality, but what can I do? It is his life.
now you make worried about him :6:
you're beating around the bush INGE !!
Is this all sort of results you've reached recently or something you know for sure ??
waiting ^^
inge :
About "Yıldız Olgusu" issue, Tarkan was not obsessed with "being described as a gay" or "homosexualty", Turkish Media decided that was the reason.
Tarkan's lawyer wanted to stop that book's promotion because of abusing the copyright protection.
You can't write and sell books (even in academic career) about someone's life without any permisson or at least "consultation". You can't criticize someone's attitude with your "opinions" and you can't label them as an academical argument.
If the real matter is "being star", she could take the matter in collective and could use tags about Tarkan on some phases. But that book was only focused on Tarkan. So the matter was Tarkan, not the "being star".
Maybe Tarkan is bisexual, or homosexual maybe is not. But you can't make money with his sexuality , his privacy, his life, his name. (Without permission)
If you want to release your academic opinions , you don't sell them as a book. (With a picture of Tarkan on cover, -besides without any legal right- .) You can discuss them in universities, on boards which are realted with psychology etc.
And there is no provision about Tarkan's behavior is wrong or "rude attack" in universal copyright laws. It was true and absolutely contemporary.
Okay Bilge,
I see your point and I agree a lot with what you say. The copyright issue may have been a part of it too. I heard from the author herself that she was unhappy with the pictures that were chosen for the book, because they used some pics with copyright. But she also told me that the ultimate reason why the book was banned was because Tarkan's lawyers managed to explain that his privacy was invaded.
This I do not really agree with. Because the author focused on all those things that happened in public and she analysed only his published pictures and his image. His published pictures are not his private life.
She did not interview him or consult him because she did not write a biography, but a media analysis. She just analysed his pictures as in: what is he wearing, how does he pose, what does it mean, and how do people react to it? What does this image mean in Turkey;s cultural context?
I think that should be legitimate as Tarkan is part of Turkey's culture. Her subject is media and communication and so to choose Tarkan as an object of research seems very plausible to me.
I said to her, (after she said I did not interview him) that such interview would not have meant anything, because she would not know if she would be interviewing Tarkan the star or Tarkan the person. I don't think he would ever assist anyone in making an analysis of his image. Like: o yes I just put on this blouse because I know that it will give such and such impression. He would never do that, he would just pretend that it is all coincidence and that he is just being himself.
In academic media literature, there are many studies about music stars and movie stars. there are thousands of books about Marilyn Monroe or Madonna or Michael Jackson. They do not ask permission but these books are never banned (or rarely ever). The focus of this book was Tarkan's star making process, so it described his image building.
To me it seems that Tarkan took advantage of the fact that banning of books is common in Turkey. Maybe he is only a liberal when it suits him.
But of course, so far I only heard her story (N.Aysun Yüksel) and because Tarkan and I do not communicate on a regular basis I have no idea what his opinion is on this issue and why for God's sake did he take the one and only book that is written about him, out of the stores. The least thing he could do is replace it by some genuine authorised biography. Now we are left with nothing, no analysis, no comments, nothing to make the fans think twice about some things, nothing that can make you say: hey, I did not see that, that is interesting! Because that is what the book did. For me anyway. I did not agree with everything she wrote but that does not matter. She looked at Tarkan just like we do, but she took her scientific eye and wrote down what she saw.
Aysun Yuksel did also issue her dissertation about Zeki Müren and Tarkan into the academic field. This book was the commercial edition, that is something that happens a lot. I hope when I am finished with my dissertation, that I can make some profit out of it by making a commercial edition. Also I think academics should share their findings with the larger community and not keep things to themselves.
I wrote to her that she could have protected him better because "Yildizin icinde, gercek bir insani var. Bu insani sen korumadin"
I also wrote her, she could have been more critical of the photo incident and the media's representation of that because the pics in themselves can be interpreted in many ways. She agreed that her book was not perfect.
But still even though some of her formulations were not perfect and some quotations were unclear, still I don't think the book should have been banned.
Somehow Tarkan managed to have his way, and now only very few people can read this book, the only book about Tarkan (if you don't count tarkan1994).
It is hard for me to explain what she wrote exactly but I feel she did not discuss his sexuality. She discussed the sexuality of his image. For instance she said, in his videos, he chooses female partners. She discussed his interview remarks in which he presents the anti-macho man. But this has nothing to do with Tarkan the person, because all of this is Tarkan in public. She did not even interview anyone who is working with him, or close to him. She was not interested in his private life at all. No matter if someone is gay or straight or bi, the image can be independant of that. In fact after reading her book I became more convinced that Tarkan is STRAIGHT and that all the mystique around his sexuality is just a way to draw attention. But as I said, she did not mention anything about who Tarkan really is.
Anyway I don't know all the details about the trial. All I know is the book, and that the book seemed pretty harmless but quite interesting.
love, Inge
ooooooooooooooooooooooooh !! :9:
now you make me worried about him :6:
you're beating around the bush INGE !!
Is this all sort of results you've reached recently or something you know for sure ??
waiting ^^
Heyy Stranger...
no worries, please. I am not beating around any bush, in fact I am just being as honest as I can be. There is nothing I know for sure.
But if I can give you my gut feeling: he is happy with Bilge and has a good relationship with her. If he has some other hobbies, he either knows well how to deal with them or they are hidden so deep inside that he can't find them anymore. Or he does not have such hobbies at all and just pretends it, so as to create some mystery.
Really Stranger I have had my periods of worrying about Tarkan, too...
and in the end: I don't know him, I can't help him or talk with him, I am not even sure of half the things I worry about...so I just try to stop worrying about him, I think you should do the same.
The problem with the Eva interview is, that this is a translation from a translation and so I cannot check if he really said it, I don''t read Bulgarian. According to some Turkish translations, he said that homosexuality is caused by a bad childhood and if you get psychotherapy, you can get over it.
My eyes nearly fell out of their sockets as I read that:9: because first of all it is not true (psychologists have tried and given up to "cure" gays, the medical world concluded in 1979 that it is not a disease or a mental illness but a permanent preference). Second I worried that he applied this to himself at some point, like in "born again heterosexual". I met some of those in Turkey, gay men who could not handle the discrimination anymore and just got married to a woman in the end and tried to be with women.
Anyway we better leave this subject because we are all guessing here and my gut feeling, as I said is, that there is nothing to be worried about, he is just fine, he is happy. He looked pretty happy to me lately, did you see him talk about Bilge in the "report of the year"?
We all are so used to looking behind everyting Tarkan does. Sometimes there is just nothing behind what we see, it is just what we see.
A happy couple. God bless.:20:
Needless to say if he should ever jump out of any closet I would love him just as much.
love, Inge
Dear Inge;
I understand what you mean. (Also everybody can reach the book from some shopping web sites, with spending a little bit effort on google :) it's not totally banned from curious Tarkan fans.)
But i have to remind you about something, before the Kuzu Kuzu single, Tarkan tried to tell us (to Turkish fans especially): "I'm bisexual", and his image on "Karma" was strongly effected by that sub-text. He said "I've got this idea (about his appearance) from a Manga movie (actual term was Hentai), and I applied it on myself with my image-maker. I like to be a non-sexual orator; I like to impress both of genders."
And after that, the time of the doomsday has come. Everybody was talkin’ about Tarkan's gayness, that was low-down action, contemptible behavior etc. (Please keep in mind that I'm not talkin’ about the photograph issue, this was earlier) Turkish media and society judged him with "really rude attacks". For that reason, maybe Tarkan developed some defense mechanism and since that day have been trying to convince himself / us (Turkish fans) that he's got a male inside. (More & More)
After Yıldız Olgusu, The Photograph issue, Alpay Aydın's book etc. everybody is observing Tarkan's ass for 24 hours. Everbody is trying to hurt him with his choice by making people think that he´s a liar. (No no you are gay, you are paying money to Bilge to show her as like your girlfriend, you are having sex with Italian guys / gays, you slept with Özcan Deniz, you got photos with Fatih Ürek in Turkish Hamam etc.) Please consider yourself in his shoes, what would you do?
For some reason (maybe even because of intentional commercial speculations) you are trying to prove yourself as a heterosexual. My opinion is that you don't understand why he pushes that far… If he is gay, he could say i'm gay, that's normal.
Unfortunately it is not normal in general. My personal belief is Tarkan tried to tell us for 2 or 3 times "i'm bisexual", but the result was a disaster for him. He is convinced to pay attention about his masculinity (To protect his career, fans, sponsors, family, girlfriend) And i believe Tarkan is not a bisexual anymore. His choice did not change because of the brutal pressure over him, but he believed and decided what he really wanted. During early 90’s , Pop Singers were denying their relationships , to protect their royal girl fans, but Tarkan was declaring his relationship with Juliet and said everyone “I DONT CARE”, he was always free to declare himself as himself. I think he never gives a f**k.
But the mistake is in somewhere else. If he says “I’m gay, so what?” the storm will be transformed into new focal point. “Tarkan you are having sex with men, how do you do it, who is your boyfriend, are you passive or active, do you like oral sex bla bla bla” No one will stop to talk. Because especially in Turkey, if you are gay, that means you are alien, you have to be observed and examined on cameras (if you are famous) and you don’t deserve respect and privacy. In Europe, -expect for tabloids- majority will be objective about your issues, but if you want to survive as a singer / or if you want to be widely popular on market you have to be heterosexual and normal I’m sorry.
Tarkan is not an Elton John or George Michael etc. And Elton John is not a Tarkan in his career, and George Michael is not a “popstar” since he is gay. So maybe we are liberal even maybe we are gay, but also we have to be realist and objective. Tarkan is not a part of some upper-gentle and educated society, and his career will not let him to declare himself as “gay” in clear. And finally maybe he is not a gay in real, so he is telling us “HE IS NOT” . In Yıldız Olgusu, maybe, the author couldn’t state any solid event to prove Tarkan’s gay tendencies, but she referred it. And that book was not a printed periodical citation, it was merely an argument. At least, it needs reconsideration. Tarkan doesn’t care if it’s a commercial edition or not, because no one would. And all of these facts , turned out into black.
I believe Aysun Yüksel’s intention is for the good and scientific, but her method and correctness is rather questionable.
I hope I could express myself as much as I meant to. It’s really good to talk with someone who has different perspective about this occurrence.
Sevgiler, Bilge :)
Dear Bilge,
thank you, it is the first time actually in a long long history of discussing this topic with other fans, that someone gives me such a well described and well formulated opinion, without ever becoming judgmental.
Thanks very much, I thank you a lot for your effort and courage to discuss this in the open even though it may be on a closed forum in the English secion of a Turkish forum, but still. I appreciate it a lot.
It is such a relief because I have tried to start a dicussion about this topic (his sexual preference & his image) many times in yahoo tarkanclub and people would get so hurt and offended and started this homophobic talk, like, you are insulting Tarkan, and the topic has been declared taboo there because some religious feelings were apparently hurt. Some gay members got hurt too, I regret this a lot. Some people attacted me too and said that I questioned his straightness because he did not want to sleep with me and so I had to make a gay out of him. That hurt me too, because they made it seem as if I was still trying to get over the rejection (which to me did not really feel like a rejection because he was so kind and spent so much time with me). Also, that is not why I said it, of course. I thought he may be bisexual, long before we talked.
The whole topic is difficult to discuss because we talk about some real intimate emotions of a person who is very dear to us, but in the meantime not very well known to us personally. I have no idea if our very talking about it could hurt him, which is my biggest fear whenever the topic arises. Anyway it is a big topic and all fans must have an opinion about it even though they may not express it.
The public discussion of Tarkan's being gay or not has started ever since the media looked at him and decided that a guy with make-up and an earring has to be gay. There were some people who jumped forward as being his ex-boyfriend. A handwritten letter of him appeared in the media, a love letter to his boyfriend from 1990 or so. Tarkan denied that it was his, but if you know his handwriting it is quite obvious that he wrote that. It is quite disgusting that someone wants to put such private stuff in the media but maybe somehow he felt left alone by Tarkan and wanted revenge, I don't know. That is the same feeling I have with Alpay Aydin's book Megamasal. It seems there is a case of unanswered love, or a case of a relationship that ended without the other person wanting it to end. Or maybe he just described his fantasy.
It's good you mention bisexual, that word comes up way too little in discussions like this. They want to put him either in "gay" or in "straight".
The trouble is that people's sexuality cannot be easily defined into two or even three categories like that. People will experiment, or act on impulse and may do things that they later say, does not fit in their preference.
If anything, I prefer saying bisexual to Tarkan, because I do believe his relationships with women are sincere. If not, I really fear for his mental health but he seems much balanced to me in this respect, I cannot imagine him denying such a big part of his personality, and "pretending" to be in love with a woman (to himself and to the media).
Another problem with this subject is the machoness of Turkish men (and men in general) who will say that a gay or bisexual man is not a real man. This is in my opinion total crap. Gay men can be really macho themselves. To me the "manhood" of a gay or bi man is never in question, but there is the queer sterotype, and I agree with you fully, once a pop star is branded with that sissy stereotype he will be unable to be a "real man" in the eyes of the media and audience. Sad but true.
There is another thing with bisexual. It is a very confusing sexual identity, because some will say that all people are in some way a bit bisexual. How do you know if you really are bisexual? And if you don't know for sure, why even tell anyone? This means that many people who are only slightly bisexual, who fall on the "straight" end of the dichotomy, will never come out of the closet.
To add a personal note, this is exactly the situation I am in. I am married to a man, fell in love with lots of men, but also with some women. Hardly anyone knows that I am bisexual, because I don't need to say it. Why make things difficult for myself? Why risk any rejection? I never had a relationship with a woman, all I know is, I can find them just as sexually attractive as men. Not all women, not all men, of course. But this is what I mean, bisexuality can remain very much hidden.
I fell in love with Tarkan and as I thought he might be bisexual just like me, it made me feel very much connected with him. I LIKED the fact that he was probably bisexual.
Most fans project their own sexual preference on Tarkan: straight fans say he's straight, bisexuals say he's bisexual, gays say he is gay. If this is an image construction, he did a magnificent job. But besides image, Tarkan has a real sexual preference- but maybe his is as confusing as is mine...
I did not know the pre-Karma quotes, about Tarkan trying to tell us that he is bisexual. But as you say "he is not a bisexual anymore" ... I don't think that people can change their sexual preference like that. They can change their behaviour but not their desires. Gay men may get married to women but they will never be as happy and satisfied like they would have been with a male partner. You cannot "get over" this preference, it is simply in the brain.
This is not just an opinion but this is what the medics and psychologists "treating" gays have concluded after years of fruitless therapies.
But as a bisexual you can be in homosexual and in heterosexual relationships. Some people believe bisexuals are promiscuous and will always want to have a male and a female partner, well this is not true. Bisexuals can be just as monogamous as heterosexuals and homosexuals. Or they can be cheating and sleeping around just like everyone else can. Loyalty to your partner depends on your moral, not on your sexual preference.
So if he is with Bilge now and if he is bisexual, his relationship does not make him any less bisexual. I believe he is very monogamous. If they ever break up, his next partner could be male or female. I have a bisexual friend who first was with a woman, then with a man, then with a woman again and now she ended up with a man, I think she will stay with him now. She did not stop being bisexual, she just made her choice for this person. Just like I did with my husband.
About Yildiz olgusu, I guess you are right it is not that hard to get (although I had to get it from her, in the end). Her statement was about his image and not about his personal life, that is how I read the book even though many others interpreted otherwise.
Thanks for making more explictit what would happen (and already happened) if tarkan would even hint that he is bisexual. You made it very clear to me that even if he wanted to say it, things would be made difficult for him. This I can understand because if even I cannot say this myself, to some of my family members and at my job, without fear of being looked at differently of being disrespected, how can I expect him to say it?
I once wrote to Tarkan, something like: you don't have to share your bedroom stories just to educate Turkey, and clear them of their stereotypes and misunderstandings, you are not freaking Atatürk and you did enough for Turkey already.
But the thing is, sometimes I write this with the idea in mind that he is bisexual, but when I re-read it with the idea in mind that he is a heterosexual with a bit of a genderbender image, I feel I may have hurt his feelings or insulted him somewhat. On the other hand, why should it be an insult if someone thinks you are bisexual? At most it could be just a case of mistaken identity...but things are not that simple. Just imagine you mistake a man for a woman, that is not neutral either...when you go, excuse me miss, and it turns out it is a mister...
Anyway you are very right to point out that even so-called liberal societies still have issues with this. I thank you again for the good points you made and I thank the tarkancoll forum for enabling us to discuss this sensitive topic out in the open. Let's hope no one got hurt while we did it, especially not Tarkan himself.
sevgiler,
Inge :)
wow!
this is a deep discussion, i had to make time to read this thoroughly!
thanks for the info and opinions girls!
both of u have made some interesting points.
not being able to speak/read Turkish i have also discovered some facts i was previosly unaware of.
X
Thanks!
Meanwhile I looked up hentai, the Manga style that Bilge said tarkan used for his Karma album. Hentai means sexually explicit or perverted, it refers to all the Manga (Japanese cartoons/ animation for adults, "anime") that is made in the more or less erotic part of the industry.
Hentai offers all sorts of erotic or pornographic Manga, and is usually made to create sexual encounters that cannot or not easily be made with live characters, like, alien sex, sex with monsters, bestiality, massive orgies etcetera, you name it, they draw it. :)
What does this have to do with Tarkan's Karma image? Well, one style of Hentai, part of the more homoerotic scene in Hentai, shows the "Bishonen"character, meaning "Beautiful youth". The style shows young men with very feminine features. They are somwhere between men and women but they are still men (underage, usually). If you look for pictures on google I don't know what you will get because it still is pornography, but here is a very decent link that I recommend, it shows a picture and gives some idea how the Karma image was derived from that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishonen
By the way I am very surprised to hear Tarkan give such open comments about his image, and the construction of his image, because, so far I only heard him deny that he has one. He would say, I did this because I liked it, or, I grew tired of long hair. He usually pretends it is all coincidence and he is just being "himself". This Hentai story was new to me and I like it a lot, I wish to hear more of that.
Thanks Bilge for the information!
love, Inge
**MegaStarkan**
08-09-07, 18:02
It was the kind of view, an exchange of views that one would expect from two.... Markedly well done Inge and Blg!
Therefore there is no need to close this topic although the thread is not about this issue.
Everybody has his opinion about Tarkan’s sexuality. ‘Just wanted to write something:
None of us knows Tarkan’s sexuality in real and I think its good so.
As Bilge has mentioned above he has, in my opinion, already achieved what he wanted in the Karma period, namely nobodies knowledge about his sexuality.
But now he still wants to show people that his is heterosexual. It seems that he is sick of all these rumours about his sexuality. Therefore for some time he made some unusual statements which we weren’t used to hear from him. He wanted to prove that he his straight. One example is this Eva reportage.
All I can say is, I hope Tarkan is happy. It seems he is, and that is most important. Even though the EVA article made me worried about his psychological state of mind and his sexuality, but what can I do? It is his life.
That was a disaster. Perhaps this was his worst reportage ever. We had a big discussion in this forum and the result was that the topic had to be closed. If you want you can read it by clicking here (http://www.tarkancoll.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1887&page=1).
At that time I couldn’t understand how Tarkan could be so sure that there is a medical way out of this “illness”. I asked myself whether he knows that from his own experiences or was this just a method to defend himself?
Anyway, I think Tarkan is heterosexual. Maybe he had in the past other tendencies. We will never know this. But be that as it may, whatever happens be it about his sexuality or something else his fans shouldn’t judge about this personality and decisions. We don’t have the right to judge him just solely because we are his fans.
I also don’t like fans who say that they won’t be Tarkan fans anymore when Tarkan does an “outing”. This kind of comments freaks me out ‘cuz do they like Tarkans music or his sexuality? It’s normal that we want to know everything about him but we should be about the limits aware.
I think that this issue is too strange for Turkey. Turkey isn’t ready for accepting and being tolerant. It seems that Turkey wants to go the traditional way. The election is the biggest proof for that, or am I too liberal?:19:
Dear inge;
Thanks for your kind words. In another time, i like to translate to English Tarkan's explanations about his sexual preference, i have got 6 interviews , but unfortunately i don't have much time these days.
Meantime, i remember that letter. I think the year was 1994 , and a tabloid named "Haftasonu" published it. Real owner of the letter is Umut Y. Özçelik. Somehow i've learned the real story at first hand from that guy, and i believe the consignor is Tarkan, so it's true. (But Alpay Aydın cracked it up to media)
Whatever, i hope we can talk about this later, because i understand you and i know you feel a lot better when you've got it off your chest. I've been rackin' my brains all the time to talk with someone about Tarkan's mental situation, but everyone turned a deaf ear to me. Actually everyone runs a mile when i ask about Tarkan's sexualty :)
And thanks to "Megastarkan" & tarkancoll board enabling us to share our opinions without censorship.
Sevgiler Bilge :)
To be honest with you guys, i don’t really care about his sexuality.
He doesn’t have to come out, if he is gay or bisexual. What could the fact that Tarkan is gay change in my life, is it gonna make me a better person after his confession (IF he has one of course) ? I’ll still listen to his music, watch his videos and go to concerts. The fact that Tarkan would be gay or bisexual doesn’t mean that he’s gonna harass all heterosexual men in the crowd who came to his concert. I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal for the media or some Turkish people.. I mean we have a transexual artist, who we consider as one of the greatest voices of all time in Turkey. She even got married to a guy (Sorry!! She got married to several guys before...).We’ve been there, people have done it before. But why is the homosexuality of Tarkan such a problem? I’ve no problem with homosexuality, myself. I can’t blame or mind other people who’re experimenting on sexual level.
Thank you Bilge and Kenan.
I would like to know the content of those interviews, Bilge. I have several articles myself, but my command of Turkish is insufficient, especially when it comes to complex subjects like these. I can understand the regular "dedikodu" but real analysises are hard to grasp.
Yes, I was referring to the 1994 Haftasonu article and the letter starting with "ne haber kiz". The handwriting is Tarkan's obviously. Still despite of the homosexual reference it does not mean that he wrote to his "boyfriend", there is room for debate in this case too, it can be interpreted in many ways. My husband has some friends with whom he jokingly makes homosexual references, just for the fun of it, just to tease each other. Guys will be guys...they will make sexually expicit jokes all the time, it does not mean they are flirting.
Another problem with interviews is that we do not know if Tarkan is building his image or if he is being honest about his real emotions. Why should he be honest, what does he owe to the media? They make money off him, he makes money off them, it is just a deal. So if he is talking about his sexual preference it is hard to look behind his image and see if he is talking honestly.
I would not even blame him if he is lying because the media are not his private friends. As long as he is honest to his real friends, that is alright.
To the media he can just say whatever he wants. But that leaves us with the fact that we never know what he really feels or thinks.
Kenan, I appreciate your opinion and yes, every fan has an opinion about this subject. It took me many years to find out a constructive way to talk and think about it, without offending people. I am glad that apparently this is the correct way to do it and we managed to keep the discussion fair. This I owe to Bilge also and to you. Fortunately so far no one has commented with the regular "shut up, you are insulting Tarkan, he is straight and I would hate him if he were not". Sometimes I think as long as fans talk like that, even if he would be bi or gay, he could never come out. Then it would be those fans who are holding him in there. I agree with you, such people freak me out too. I hope for their upcoming sons and daughters that they will all be straight, or they have some hell to look forward to.
If Tarkan is heterosexual (very plausible) then he must have been so from the beginning. Because it is my professional opinion, as psychologist who has studied the course of "gender and sexual identity", that people cannot change their sexual preference. They can deny it, fight it, and walk away from it, they can force themselves into relationships that do not really function well sexually...but they will never stop being who they are. They may kill themselves even, this happens a lot unfortunately. As far as I understand after all I have read about it, it is a natural part of human diversity, just like freckles or black hair, or red hair, or blue eyes.
You can pretend that you have blond hair but it if your hair is black it will keep on growing and you will have to dye your hair all the time to make it look blond. You will never really be blond (to make a nice reference to Tarkan's current girlfriend). Is she blond? Yes and no. She looks blond but it is not really blond, is it? We all know her actual hair color is black.
There must be many homosexuals who try to become straight and they may seemingly succeed, they may act as if they are straight and get married, and have children. Still inside they will always be gay, they will always prefer to be with men instead of with women. Society and religion can force people to deny their true identity and make them behave against their nature. But as a psychologist I believe that this causes much psychological damage.
I want to believe Tarkan's relationships with women and they all look very real to me, so I assume he is probably bisexual (considering the ongoing rumour and indications that he had some male partners in the past). But I also know that in Turkey, many homosexual men lead a forced fake heterosexual life. That is not bisexuality, it is brainwashing...
The thing is, our conversation will never be anything more than hearsay and speculation. For this we know too little about who he really is. We don''t even know to what extend he really understands/ accepts himself. In the worst case, the Eva article and also his strong reaction towards the Yildiz Olgusu book indicate that he is not finished with this topic and is very insecure about it. On the other hand, such explanations like the image building for Karma does suggest that he is more than one step ahead of those who are trying to analyse him (including us).
Then there is the issue of privacy. Everyone can freely decide to be open about one's own sexual preference, or not. But to discuss the sexual preference (hobbies, desires, actions) of someone else will soon end in gossip, even with such a public figure like Tarkan.
Therefore I don't know if it is just our tone of voice, and our respectful way in which we approached each other, that should be decisive whether or not we can continue our debate in public. We are talking about the private sexual life of a real person for whom we all share great admiration, deep respect, and heartfelt consideration. This alone may be reason enough to end our discussion about his sexual life.
I am not saying we SHOULD stop talking about it or that this should be a taboo subject. I just want to ask you to take this into consideration, especially because we both already said so much. How would you feel if Tarkan would read this discussion? He might read it... Would he feel comfortable? I don't know...
He can't talk to us now and so we must think FOR him. I know many people who would be extremely upset to be talked about like this. he's probably used to it and it should not surprise him but I would not want to do anything that mkaes him feel uncomfortable.
Yet on the other hand you are right Bilge, this whole subject means a lot to me and I feel much better being able to get if off my chest, as you say.
Thanks!
love, Inge
PS nooo Kenan you are not to liberal!!!:)
Olya TnUnited
09-09-07, 01:37
ok, I read it all, now it's all in my head :)) well, about gays...I can say that even if Tarkan had some same gender preferences earlier, he might as well lose them now...as Inge said abouve-it's your own preference....once he mentioned his father's love wan't enough or smthng....well, I got a friend/coworker, who considered himself in being gay...after a while like 1 year after I met him...with his wife! and then once he said it was just some crazy fun for him, now he knows what he wants -he is straight....no comments here...and some other exapmles too....it all depends on your shoice ...I guess
Hi Olya!
Yes it is true that these categories are not that simple, some gay men will have relations with women, some straight men will have relationships with men, some will call that "experimenting". And some people maybe bisexual and just never know it, they just think they are gay/ straight and did some experimenting. But what I mean is, it is not really a matter of choice what you are, it is matter of choice what you do.
I know a man also who tried to have some fun with another man and now he is married too. They say about 30% of men have tried some of that. Especially in countries where all women have to be virgins before marriage it happens a lot, it is like in prisons, "occasion homosexuality"...
It's good you point this out too, because in the end the categories are just boxes that people made, but not everyone fits in the boxes very neatly.
Just like "men"and "women"there are also categories in between, with different chromosomes, or different hormones, or genitals of both genders...still we want everyone to be either male or female. That's not doing justice to the hermaprodites...
man we are drifting off subject!!!
By the way if I look at your self-made picture with Tarkan, it looks really good, but I always think his head is a bit too big there...could you photoshop it and make his head smaller or yours bigger? It would look even better...
love
Inge
hey everyone ,
i just want to thank you for this objective , civil discussion bravo
as for continuing this interesting debate , i am quite sure that there
is lots of curious readers who are checking this thread on daily basis
(like me for example ^^) it is the first serious english debate i have ever read about TARKANs sexualiy . so this is important for me to know the real case of the issue . not because that would affect my love to TARKAN !!
it just as INGE said , fans love to look behind what they see even when
there is nothing to look at .. it is a FIRST for me to know these incidents
and facts .. i love TARKAN the human and the talented artist equally..
i can't imagine myself turning against TARKAN because he's bi or gay..
not mentioning hurting him verbally ..
i actually appreciate him on whole different level now . he's such a fighter!!
he manages to hold himself together in front of all those rumours .. and continues following his dream passionately .. i really admire him ..
thanx again
TARKANfan no matter what ^^
hi I'm new to this board and I have no idea if I should present myself or something (I don't understand Turkish), so since I just read through all this topic I'm going to comment here. I'm very thankful for all your insights about the issue and found the whole thing very interesting, not because I care if Tarkan is straight, gay or bi, but because on the Internet so far I've only seen "discussions" about this topic in such terms as "he's gay" (as if it was an insult) and "no I'm his fan and he can't be gay", which annoys me very much (and I can only imagine how much it annoys him). said this, as you said Inge there really isn't much else to add when all you can say is speculation, and personally I don't care about his sexuality, I'd just wish he could live with it quietly without having to "justify" everything. but I guess this is impossible at the moment, isn't it? :)
**MegaStarkan**
11-09-07, 17:43
hi I'm new to this board and I have no idea if I should present myself or something (I don't understand Turkish), so since I just read through all this topic I'm going to comment here.
Welcome to Tarkancoll Nephtis:1:
Well, if you want you can introduce yourself by clicking here (http://www.tarkancoll.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=67). You just have to open a new thread (:
I know, it's a little bit confusing for foreign members that our board is basically in Turkish. But you will get used to it :)
In my signature you can find the different sections in our forum. If you have any questions or requests or if you need something you can always ask me ;)
Olya TnUnited
11-10-07, 04:22
R u calling me a small head Inge?? :)) well, I photoshopped t long time ago :) and thank you for the compliment :P hehe I hope soon I will get a real pic lol :)
Arabian Dudu
11-10-07, 16:06
MY GOD !! :9:
Is that ALL because a stupid situation ??!!
(TARKAN) did the right thing in my opinion ..
It is HIS OWN RIGHT !!
any way : I TOTALLY AGREE with kenan .. !! :20:
(TARKAN) Is a great person won't hurt any one for no reason !!
so STOP this disccusion people !
It Is with NO reason !!
If We completed All this and kept talking it will never end !!
and We will put theories with no basics !!
so Come On please !!
He is a human being so We are !!
He Is Not an Angel or some thing !! :8:
(Though He Is My Angel ;p )
Let's expect from Him what We expect from ourselves when We get through the same situation !!
In - Brief :- Treat Him as : NORMAL PERSON !!
NOT (TARKAN) The POP STAR!!
And ITOTALLYBelieve That HE IS NOTGAY !! :13:
GOSH !! This is really annoying !!
and it disgusses ME !! :7:
Poor (TARKAN) how Bad HE feels about that !! :6:
If HE Is GAY , What THE HELL the blonde Is doing with Him !??!
OH GOD !! :9:
That is so awful and confusing to think about !!
So ......
Calm Down , Friends :20:
and ~ Have A Nice Day ~
Take Care:27:
first of all ..who is this man??it is obvious that he wants to be famous by
making this noise with such afamous and universal singer(tarkan)if he didnt do so he wouldnt be here in this big clube,and i will never know himhttp://www.roro44.com/smilies/happy/089.gif
i am sorry but he seems stupidhttp://www.roro44.com/smilies/happy/007.gifand i think his program is just like him....any way every one has the right to express his point of view!!you cant force him to think the way others thinking!AND he is right ,programs are not successfule if they arnt knowing by the whole univers... it cant be compared with OPRAH which tarkan deserve
thank you for this interesting information >>MEGASTARKAN
MeLoDy
We can all say: stop treating Tarkan like a pop star, but he IS a pop star! How can we treat him like a friend? he does not even know most of us, he does not even answer our letters!
So I will talk about him like he is a public figure because he is a public figure!
Why should we stop this discussion? Why is that with no reason?
The media does not stop. Why can't we, fans, express our opinion? We talk all day long about Tarkan, about the media news, also about his private life with Bilge. Why can't we talk about the possibility that Tarkan has been in love with some men?
If we have to be silent about this...is that because it would be bad to think he maybe loves men too? What if he does? Why is that so bad? Is that something to be ashamed about?
In Turkey, gay people are not always accepted and I know some gay men get married to a woman...
I don't know if this is the case with Tarkan, I don't think so,
but as I say, I don't know...
I hope not because I want him to be happy, I don't want him to have a secret love life and be unhappy. I believe he is in love with Bilge now.
I think she is very attractive, I would be in love with her too!!!
But...it does not mean that Tarkan is no angel...Tarkan still is an angel, no matter if he is in love with women or with men or with both, He is a sweetheart and his sexual preference does not matter for that.
Stop saying that it is bad to be gay. This is very hurtful to all gay people in this club. It is okay to be gay.
Also I said Tarkan is probably not gay but I think he maybe bisexual.
Then you can understand what the blonde is doing with him!!!
I am not insulting Tarkan at all. If you think so, it means that you think being gay or bisexual is bad. That is really an insult to all members here who are gay or bisexual. Please show some respect for these members, to me, and who knows...to Tarkan.
love
Inge
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